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Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
Katie: Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and I am back today with Dr. Katie Deming to talk deeper about how to talk to someone with cancer, which is also the topic of her TEDx talk, which I will link to in the show notes. In our first episode together, we dove deep on what no one tells you about cancer and how she’s addressing the emotional, mental, spiritual pieces that are often overlooked in the conventional model. And in this episode, we talk a lot about the language around, both for someone who might be experiencing cancer and those in support roles, how language can be so important and how to best show up, support, and even just talk to someone who’s going through a tough diagnosis. So many pieces of wisdom in this episode, even if you yourself are not experiencing anything to do with cancer. As she explains, we likely all will know someone in our lifetime who has a cancer diagnosis since one in three women and one in two men in today’s world will receive that diagnosis at some point in our lives, but I feel like so many of the things she says are applicable to so much beyond just cancer. So let’s join her now. Katie, welcome back.
Dr. Deming: Hi, it’s so nice to be here with you.
Katie: Well, if you guys missed it, I loved our first episode and getting to hear your perspective of 20 years in the traditional oncology world and then the amazing life shift that you had. And now this additional perspective that you’re able to bring to help so many people. And in this episode, I would love to go in a slightly different direction and talk about from the side of those of us who maybe are not in the place of experiencing a cancer diagnosis, or that’s not our current thing that we’re working on, but likely we know someone who has or will experience that. Because you mentioned in our first episode, I believe it was one in three women and one in two men will get a cancer diagnosis in their lifetime in the modern world. And so likely all of us at some point are going to interact with someone who has received that news.
And I know at least from experience, it seems times that are very difficult to know what to say. We’re not necessarily innately great at those conversations, whether it’s when someone has a miscarriage or loses a loved one or gets a diagnosis that’s hard to hear. And we can maybe feel that conflict of loving someone and wanting to be supportive and also not really knowing how or what to say or the best way to show up for that person. And I feel like you have such a beautiful perspective from the calling you had in your life into the oncology world, after thinking that you didn’t even want to go into medicine, especially medicine where people might die. And then this additional amazing awakening you had that gave you deeper perspective. And so with all of that wisdom and knowledge, I would love for you to walk us through, how do we broach that conversation? How do we best show up for people who are going through those hard things?
Dr. Deming: Sure. Well, and I think that it’s really important to recognize that it’s okay to not know what to say and to show up anyway and to even admit and to say, oh my, I don’t even know what to say. I want to be here for you. But I may need some help, and I may need some guidance and actually just being really curious. Like curiosity, I feel like is one of the best things that you can do to support someone who is going through an illness like cancer. It really could be anything. But one of those subjects where you’re not even sure what to say is to say like, I am here for you. And that I may not know the right things to say or the right things to do, but I’m open to knowing what works best for you.
And I gave a TEDx talk on titled How to Talk to Someone with Cancer. And there I talk about the language. And actually, a lot of us, and this all started, my awareness around it came from me as a leader within cancer care. I was using the word survivor. And I didn’t even know that that was offensive to some people with cancer. And led me down studying that with some colleagues and finding out that, yeah, actually it’s very mixed. Some people find it empowering to think of themselves as a survivor, but other people find it reminds them of a hard time in their life, or it brings up like all these memories of the cancer, or if they have stage four, why would you call me a survivor, when I’m not going to survive my cancer?
And so one of the things that I encourage people is just to be really thoughtful about your language and asking questions about that. Because sometimes we think like, oh, you know, we want to say like, I’m in the fight with you, or we’re going to fight this, or we’re going to battle. And that’s another piece, so survivor is one word that can be really triggering for people with cancer. But another is like the battle language. And that there are some people who they don’t want to battle. And to be honest, that battle language can actually stimulate the sympathetic nervous system, that fight or flight. And that may not be what you want, right, when someone’s healing. They want, the ideal place for healing happens in peace.
And I’m not saying that battle language is never helpful. For some people, it may be, but these are some of the things just to think about that we might naturally say because we read them, we see them, talking about fighting cancer and all this stuff, but really becoming aware of your language and then asking the person, like, is there certain language that feels like empowering for you, like pumps you up, gets you like feeling like you can do this. And is there language that maybe trips you up and makes you feel anxious, or it doesn’t work for you? And telling me that is really helpful so that I can use the language that’s most empowering for you.
Katie: Oh, I think that’s such sage advice about the curiosity piece that applies to all aspects of life and relationship. But I love that you said the ideal place for healing is in peace. And it made me think of the contrast even in just the messaging when it comes to fundraising for cancer charities even, and like the fight against cancer and the battle and the, like so much of that language seems so prevalent. And I can understand why, because this is something that’s hard for people and they’re wanting to like get through it. And so I can see why it would be easy to default to that battle language, but also why that could be really hard for some people to hear.
And from the nervous system side, like you said, I hadn’t thought about that, but keeping in that like fight or flight nervous system, which again, for me in my own life, not with cancer, but with Hashimoto’s, as long as I had that language of my body is attacking itself and I am sick and I am trying to battle this disease, that was the nervous system state I stayed in. And I was very much in fight or flight for a long time. And through the process of addressing the emotions and doing trauma work and supporting my body physically, I was slowly able to let that go. And it shifted everything for me. And so I can only imagine how much more amplified that could be for someone with something like a cancer diagnosis and how tough that would feel for them.
I’d love to talk more about the language side, because I feel like this from both sides, from someone trying to support someone going through a tough diagnosis and from the person working through that themselves probably is really profound and maybe also underestimated when we’re thinking about working through something. So like I mentioned, I know I had to shift my language from those things like my body is attacking itself with autoimmune disease, or I am sick and shifting my own language and how I thought about those things to my body is healing. And every day I feel better and better. And my body knows how to heal and how over time, as I said that, even if I didn’t believe it at first, it actually shifted my experience of how I felt about that and then how my body responded.
So can you walk us through any other language tips, both for a person who is going through that experience that they can shift internally to feel more nervous system support and safety, and also for those of us showing up in a support role, how we can do that as well through our language to support their abilities to heal through, to support their empowerment, to support their peace and safety.
Dr. Deming: Sure. Well, and I want to go back to the point that you made about why nonprofits use this language. And then also in politics, they use it. So Nixon first coined the war on cancer. And then these a lot of the nonprofits use this fighting or battle language. And it makes sense because it sells. So battle language is effective in marketing, like selling this idea of war on cancer for the politicians or in the sector where they’re trying to raise money. They’re marketing. And so you have to just think about that like, oh, wow. Okay, then that really maybe does not belong when we’re talking to someone who’s actually trying to heal.
And so what I recommend for people for themselves is to start to pay attention to the words that you’re using and how do they make you feel? And that’s really the first step because you don’t even know, that like this idea that you were describing with the Hashimoto’s, it’s so conditioned into us, this idea of sickness and an enemy and something we have to fight. And it’s just been created by the paradigm of Western medicine. But if we had lived in an earlier time where there was much more of a natural approach and that diseases are not really these entities that something’s wrong with you, but a constellation of symptoms that something’s out of balance, it has a totally different feeling about that.
And I think the first thing is just to tune into do these words help me? And if the word doesn’t help you, like if there’s a word that’s not suiting you, put it down and see, okay, does that help me feel better? And work your way towards using language that feels empowering. Like that is, the two things that I want everyone who is dealing with any kind of physical limitation or illness is empowered because absolutely your body knows how to heal if we can give it the right inputs, but then also is peace because the place where our body heals is in a state of rest, digest. It’s not in fight or flight. And this actually becomes very problematic for someone who’s dealing with a diagnosis like cancer, where there’s so much of this information out there that feels so daunting and that you have to fight it. And it’s just this terrible and the prognosis, the things that we’ve been told about the prognosis, I think are not true. Like I said, I think everyone can heal their disease, but it’s getting the body the right input so it can do what it needs.
But our thoughts guide everything that we’re creating in our lives. So it’s first recognizing just like what words maybe don’t fit with you, but then starting to use language that feels powerful. And it can be combined with like putting on music. That’s a meditation that makes you feel strong in your body and really recognizing that our bodies will do what they’re designed if we guide it in that direction. And so using our words powerfully to direct towards what we want to create, but then also part of that is processing our emotions. Because a lot of times we’ll start using language and words that we’re not even aware, but a lot of it’s coming from the emotions that we’re feeling. And so part of this work of learning to use your language in a more powerful way is also being present with your emotions and letting them run through you. Because especially if someone, you can imagine someone with cancer is bombarded by fear, right? So they were probably afraid of getting sick in the first place. That was one of their fears. And then now it’s shown up. And so now they’re like, oh, I really do have something to be afraid of. And then you’re in constant sympathetic activation and fear state.
And so starting to learn how to process fear and release it so that you can neutralize it. Because if you start telling your brain, everything’s fine, I’m powerful, I’m this, but you’re feeling fear, the feeling is what is guiding the response in your body. And so you have to make sure those two things are aligned. And so that’s why I feel like emotional processing is really important to start to neutralize like, release the air in the balloon to get more neutral and then use your language. Because otherwise our brains are super smart and they are designed to catch us when we’re doing something dangerous, right? So if your brain is like, no, there’s danger here and you’re feeling those fear and that emotions, but then you’re saying something different, there’s a disconnect and you’re not going to create what you want. So hopefully that’s clear. But I think it’s really part of this language piece is also making sure your emotions are lining up with the words that you’re using.
Katie: That seems like such an important distinction and the difference between just saying affirmations or mantras over and over and actually shifting the emotions and feeling the feeling of those things shifting and then letting that shift our experience. And I love that you said our thoughts guide everything that we’re creating in our lives. I also know from firsthand experience and from seeing other people have this play out as well, like that could be a very difficult thing to shift, especially like you mentioned, if you are in something that seemingly brings fear with it and you are having that emotion reinforced a lot. I actually am seeing this with a close friend in real life who has had a number of health challenges and has kind of the internal story of like, this is so hard. Everything goes wrong. As soon as one thing gets fixed, something worse pops up, and then there’s a lot of fear and just sort of like despair. And I wish from the outside that I could somehow like magically shift that from her. And I also realized, like you said, that’s an empowerment thing. And that shift will come internally from her, not from anything I can do from the outside. But in instances like that, are there things we can do from the outside even if it’s resources we can recommend or like small things we can do that might help someone begin that inner journey for themselves?
Dr. Deming: Well, I think that you bring up a really important point. And this is one of the things that for myself, especially being around this so much that I can see sometimes things that other people can’t see. One, because I’m outside and I have a little bit of distance. But then two, I also have the experience of seeing the common things that come up. And so I think I always have to pull myself back a little bit and remind myself that, and I’m speaking with people that I love, that are not necessarily clients. Obviously, a client has hired me to help them through this process. But if I’m supporting someone that I love, I will gently bring up maybe some information or whatever, but I absolutely don’t push. And I definitely try to let them have their experience and also recognize that they’re going to see what they need to see when they are ready. And that my job as a daughter or as a friend or as a supporter is really just to support them in what they need in the moment. And that if they’re not ready, it actually is likely to create a chasm in the relationship more than anything.
And I’ll share the experience of my mom. So my mom was diagnosed with ovarian cancer right after I was got my TED talk. So my biggest fear was to talk about something that was personal, right? And then all of a sudden, I was like, oh, it’s no problem for me to talk about cancer in my TEDx talk. But then all of a sudden, my mom had been diagnosed. And it brought up all of this stuff in terms of for my own personally, but then also what I realized is that my mom, and I have a very different experience with cancer than what I would have chosen for her or for myself. And that she ultimately needed to have that experience because that is what her contract, whatever her life course is, I don’t know what that is. And my job was just to love her and to be present for that. And I bit my tongue a lot.
So I say that just because I think it’s one of those things where we want to be helpful but this is where we actually can get in the way of someone else’s healing processes, if we get attached to what we think should happen. And I’m not saying that you were saying that I just think this is a common thing that we watch someone struggling, and then we really want to help them change it. But that’s part of their experience of the illness and the journey of learning themselves. And sometimes, all we need to do is just love them.
And I always think about what I’m wanting to create for someone that I love is a sense of peace and support. And so whenever I’m showing up for them, I’m like, how am I helping to facilitate that? How am I making sure that they know that I love them, and that I’m here for whatever is coming up with them?
Katie: That is such an important point and a great one. In general, I try to keep that sort of guiding idea in life of like, I don’t offer advice unless it’s asked for because I feel like it’s rarely helpful unless it’s specifically asked for. And I can only imagine how difficult that must have been to bite your tongue when it’s your mom, who I’m sure you love so much. And you have all this very specific expertise and experience in the things she was facing and to be able to like, let that go and remind, like be in the role of her daughter and just love her. Even when I’m sure you of course had like, oh, if I could just shift the course of all of this, if I could just direct all of these things. And so I can only imagine that seems like a beautiful example of recognizing that difference in that shift and a great reminder actually for me as well with my friend who’s in that situation.
Are there any other things from the TED Talk specifically, and I’ll of course link to that in the show notes as well, but that you feel like are helpful sort of first principles or things to understand when speaking to someone who has a cancer diagnosis?
Dr. Deming: Yeah, I think the first is still showing up, even though it may be uncomfortable. The worst thing that we can do is just to not show up because we don’t know what to say. So it’s better to show up and say, I love you so much and I want to be here for you. And I’m not sure what are the right things to do. And just open that dialogue and to be very curious, I think, is the first thing. Show up and be curious.
And then the second thing is that when people are clear enough to tell you what they want, actually then follow that cue and really pay attention to what people is important and not to them. Because what’s quite common for me to hear is that people are going through their own experience of cancer and then the family members, they’ve even expressed what’s important to them and what they need. And then the family members just kind of get into their own story about it.
And so one of the things, and I don’t say this in the TED Talk, but I think this is really important, is that if you are supporting someone who’s very close to you, so say a family member or a spouse or a parent or someone who’s really close, you need your own support system that is not them. Because oftentimes the person who’s sick ends up making everyone else feel better. Like, no, I am actually okay. Everything’s okay. And then you’re supporting all those people who they should be supporting you when you’re going through something tough like this through cancer.
And so I just really encourage people to recognize you want to have your own support system of people that you can talk to about. It’s hard to support someone with cancer because you’re also experiencing the fear and the stuff coming up. And so making sure you’re getting your own support, you feel stable and also neutral and you’re not projecting your goals and wishes on that other person. And this is so common. We think about it like, I don’t want, I didn’t want my mom to die. I didn’t want my mom to suffer unnecessarily. But I also had to keep myself in check, right? And so this is the pieces I think that like showing up, being open, being curious, following people’s lead, and then also making sure that you have your own support system so that you’re clean when you come in to support that other person.
Katie: Oh, that’s such a great point. And I don’t feel like I’ve heard that talked about at all. And I having an additional support system makes so much sense because yes, that person is going through probably much more. And I can see the support people struggling with feeling like, well, they’re the one who actually needs support. I don’t like, it shouldn’t be fair for me to get support, but when you’re showing up in a support role, of course, you’re going to have your own emotions around that. And to not want to add that to them as additional emotions or a burden that they would feel as they’re also going through a difficult thing. So I love that you brought up that distinction.
I’m also curious if any other books or resources or anything you found in your own journey because you had a massive life shift in the work that you did and in learning about the mental and emotional side and how to address that that you would recommend to anyone listening separate or together with a cancer diagnosis.
Dr. Deming: So that’s a great question. And I think there are a few documentaries that are great. So the HEAL with Kelly documentary series is a really good one because it covers all of these things. It covers the mental and emotional piece and then also the connection of why we’re getting sicker as a society. But that’s one that I think is really good. We mentioned Biology of Belief, which is a great one. And what’s interesting is this with the emotions, you know, I think The Body Keeps the Score is a great book. It’s a thick one. So this is one more for someone who really does have emotional trauma, understanding how the body holds on to that information and how it can make us sick. I think that that is another also really helpful book.
Katie: Wonderful. I will put all of those links in the show notes as well as I know you have a website that has a lot more additional resources that you provide to people who want to go deeper on any of these topics we’ve talked about as well as your podcast. Can you just briefly talk about your podcast as well? I love the name of it. And I know that you have so many resources available in both of those places.
Dr. Deming: Sure. And then actually, I just thought of one other book that I want to recommend, which is Dying to Be Me by Anita Moorjani. And that book is about Anita’s experience of developing cancer and then also healing it after a near-death experience. And she saw how fear, she had created her cancer with her fear. And if she had created it, she could also heal it. And when she came back into her body, basically melted away these tumors. I think that is a beautiful story. And she has such a good awareness of the emotional component to illness. So I wanted to share that.
And then my, so my website is katiedeming.com and my podcast is called Born to Heal. And I share my experience of leaving Western medicine, why I left, and what that was like going through that. But then also I bring guests on every week to interview and talk about the things that I really think I should have been taught in medical school and that anyone who wants to heal cancer should know about.
Katie: I love that. Well, I will link to all of those things that you just mentioned in the show notes for you guys listening on the go. That’s at wellnessmama.com. Katie, thank you so much. These have been such fascinating conversations, and I’m so grateful for your time and for all the work that you’re doing.
Dr. Deming: Thank you so much. It’s my pleasure to be here.
Katie: And thank you, as always, for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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