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Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
This podcast is brought to you by Ritual, and in particular, their women’s prenatal, which I wish I had found when I was pregnant, which I recommend all the time to my pregnant friends. Did you know that there are now updated recommendations for omega-3 DHA intake during pregnancy and that this is super critical because less than 5% of U.S. pregnant women consume the recommended amount. And there are a lot of data linking the proper amounts of this essential nutrient in pregnancy to really good outcomes for the baby, including brain health and so much more. And approximately 95% of Americans, including pregnant and lactating women, are not getting enough choline in their diet either. And Ritual sets out to solve this problem. Their prenatal is different from my perspective. It’s science backed formula, it’s third-party tested to be free of heavy metals, microbes, traceable ingredients, and it is meticulously researched to have the right levels of nutrients to specifically support a pregnant woman and her developing baby. They include, for instance, methylated folate and nature-identical choline to support the baby’s neural tube development, the right amount of omega-3 for brain and early vision development, and vitamin D support for fetal bone health.
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Katie: Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com. And I have been getting an increasing number of questions about how to support children with ADHD. And that is why I’m so excited for today’s guest. And we do two episodes together. In this first one, we talk about a food-first approach to ADHD symptom reduction. And my guest today, Dana Kay, is a board-certified holistic health and nutrition practitioner, two times international best-selling author, and the CEO of ADHD Thrive Institute. She was first and foremost a mother of a child with ADHD and went on quite the journey to figure out how to support him when medication did not work and now has helped hundreds or thousands of other families through the same journey. And in this episode, she really delves into the science of a multifaceted approach to supporting ADHD and how medication doesn’t have to be the only approach and it can either be a both and or through a multifaceted approach. Some people find the need to reduce or even not take medication anymore, but at the very least, that medication isn’t the only option available. And she explains the science of ways to support our children’s bodies, how the gut is so deeply involved in this equation, and other factors that are within our ability to affect change as parents and that can be really helpful for supporting our children in improving their symptoms when it comes to ADHD. So let’s join her now. Dana, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
Dana: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. I’m really excited to be here.
Katie: I’m excited for this conversation and to get to jump into a topic that I get a lot of questions, understandably, from other moms about. And that I feel like there are some great resources that you have and your expertise to really serve a lot of these moms who are working with their kids who are experiencing some of the symptoms and expressions of ADHD and ways that they can support them better. I know this is quite a broad topic, so we’re going to do our best to condense as much knowledge as possible into just two short episodes. You guys stay tuned for round two after this episode airs. I also know from researching for this episode, there is a personal story behind your passion for the work that you do. And so as a little bit of an intro, and I have a feeling we’ll segue way into our specifics as well, can you share how you got into this work that you do?
Dana: Yeah, look, I mean, it’s just impacting so many families out there. And my son was actually diagnosed when he was four years old, and we were immediately put on medication and things at first were great until they weren’t. And he was prescribed a second medication and then a third medication. And when the doctor wanted to put him on the fourth medication, that’s when I sort of said something doesn’t feel right. And that’s when I dove into the science and the research and really learned that ADHD symptoms can be reduced naturally. Medication is not the only way. And I went back to school, and I did my holistic science degree and all the certifications. My son now is graduating middle school. He’s almost 15 and he hasn’t been on meds for years and he’s thriving. But back then I was on an emotional rollercoaster my whole life. And I just know that there are so many families out there that are struggling that don’t need to.
Katie: Absolutely. And understandably that I can totally understand why parents would turn to medication if they feel like it’s really going to help their child. And I would guess many other parents have had a similar experience to you of trying that route. And it’s not that they were not wanting to do the medication, but simply that it didn’t give the results that they were hoping, or there still were gaps in the support that they felt like their children needed. And I had a similar story with getting Hashimoto’s, being diagnosed, being on medication, and then eventually realizing there were other factors and that medication wasn’t my best option either. And so I love that you are addressing this in the ADHD world.
And also I feel like there’s a lot of hope in that message, because even for families who are going the medication route, it seems like from your work, there’s still many other methods of support that can be either complimentary or fully replace the need for those things when they’re really addressed. And I love that because your approach seems extremely tangible and very actionable, which as a busy mom myself, I know how busy moms stay. So you went back and actually did the work, got the education, and super deep dove on this. A lot of moms don’t have the time or the resources to be able to do that. So I love that your passion is bringing all of that knowledge and actionable advice to other moms. It seems like this, like any health approach, is going to be very multifaceted. But I’m guessing some patterns have emerged for you throughout your work and in your son’s experience that really highlighted some key points along the way. So I would love for you to walk us into, aside from medication, what are some of the key things to look at if we’re trying to help a child with ADHD?
Dana: You’re so right. It is multifaceted. And I think that we want to take this holistic approach, look at the whole child, the whole family. You know, if we think about when we’re building a house, if that house doesn’t have a solid foundation, that house is not going to be very strong. And that’s the way that I think about food. Food is our solid foundation. So we really, really need to start with that. You know, when children are diagnosed with ADHD, the first course of treatment that most doctors suggest is medication, but many of them don’t tell them that altering the diet can significantly reduce ADHD symptoms.
And so for me, it’s really that food first approach. You know, there’s a time and place for medication. Don’t get me wrong. Like I’m not completely against it, but it shouldn’t be the first port of call. And not when food that doesn’t have any side effects at all can sometimes be even more effective. So if parents want to reduce ADHD symptoms in their children, they need to do something much more than just give a supplement or a pill. You know, supplements can be really effective. So can medication. So, you know, if kids are continuing to eat sort of processed, inflammatory foods like gluten and dairy, artificial flavors, and artificial colors, those ADHD symptoms are not going to go away because those are the foods that are actually exacerbating their symptoms.
So for me, you know, a food first approach means rather than trying to find sort of that magic pill that’s going to fix a child, we clean up their diet instead. And, you know, I found through all of the work that I’ve done and working with, you know, the families that I have up until now, I think I’ve helped over a thousand other children get to the same place as my son. Inflammation is one of the biggest drivers. And so we want to actually remove the things that are causing that inflammation. And diet is our foundation. Diet, if our diet is poor, we can never function at our best.
Katie: Yeah. And I feel like we’re seeing, of course, a rise in the symptoms of ADHD, but we’re also in kids seeing a rise of many chronic health conditions. And many people I’ve talked to on this podcast bring it back to that inflammation piece. And we see this, of course, in adults as well. And I’ve heard similar stories of the medication-first approach in the thyroid world, in the perimenopause and menopause world, in almost every area of health. And I also always want to be the first to say, I don’t at all look down on doctors for that approach because that’s what they’re taught. And every doctor I know, they actually got into their work because they desire to help people. So I don’t ever bring that up to say anything negative about doctors, but to your point, it doesn’t have to be an either or, it can be a both and. And like you said, it shouldn’t be the first or certainly the only thing that we look at when there’s this mountain of evidence and an even bigger mountain of anecdotal experience from families showing that dietary changes can be very supportive in so many ways.
And I think as a society, we have to look at this elephant in the room of inflammation and why are we seeing this drastic rise in it. And what can we do to shift that tide if we want to see any change in these statistics, especially for our kids? In fact, that was my sort of origin story of how Wellness Mama even started was reading that our kids’ generation will be the first in two centuries to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents if we don’t change these statistics. And that’s really sobering. That’s where we are as a population when it comes to health statistics.
I also know that as a mom and having kids myself, making dietary changes with kids can be difficult. So I would love to kind of address the two-pronged side of any advice for, first of all, what are the dietary changes that are most impactful? And secondly, how do we support our children in being able to make those changes, especially if they’re presenting with ADHD symptoms and maybe have some pickiness around food to begin with?
Dana: Yeah, that’s a really good question. And I know the talk of diet makes some people shudder. And at first it did for me as well. Like, to be honest, I don’t like cooking. And my family used to laugh at me because I’d be the one that would bring the roast chicken from the supermarket to a potluck. So I totally, totally get it. What I tell families is Rome wasn’t built in a day. You do not need to make all of these changes at once. You know, you can take that one slow step to keep you moving forward.
In terms of what you want to focus on, it’s really those whole fresh foods. You know, I talk about the top, the top inflammatory foods being gluten, dairy, artificial flavors, artificial colors, refined sugars. And so you really want to remove those out from the diet and then feed the body with fresh, whole fruits and veggies, grass fed animal proteins, such as meat, seafood, eggs, wild caught seafood. We want healthy fats to feed that brain. So avocado, coconut oil, probably all the things that you talk about on this podcast, Katie, and also on your amazing website. So really focusing on those whole fresh foods, but just do it slowly because if you just take those small, slow steps, you’ll turn around and all of a sudden it will be your new normal. You know, you won’t even think about it.
And if you think about like, okay, just say you do taco Tuesday and you do that, there are some few little, swaps that you can make that can continue to be your taco Tuesday, but they just don’t include some of those inflammatory foods and they include more whole foods. And so making that one swap a week. Before too long, all of your dinners will be better for you. Maybe change one snack at a time or one meal at a time, or maybe start with breakfast. I like to start with breakfast once, you know, breakfast is the most important meal of the day. And once you’re comfortable with that and your child is comfortable with that, you can move on to the next meal.
We really need to take our kids on the journey as well, not just throw everything out at once. That’s what I did actually, you know, I found I, once I learned this, I needed to just implement it. And I threw all the food out of the house, including 40 of his food sensitivities. Let’s just say I had multiple panic attacks in my bedroom on the floor, wondering what am I going to feed my family? That is not what I teach in my program. So, you know, really taking those small, slow steps. Picky eating is a huge topic. And I can tell you so many families out there, probably about 70% of the kids that I work with, do have a picky eater, but I could probably talk for hours on that one topic.
Katie: Yeah. And I feel like the other encouraging part here is the data are really fascinating, actually, about like we’ve heard a lot about the gut microbiome, but it’s such an incredibly adaptable part of our system that like to your point, if we can start making little changes, our gut is incredible at being able to adapt to those changes. And then over time with baby steps, the body adapts, the taste buds adapt. We begin, we start to enjoy and even crave the foods our body needs as we give it the space to do that. And so I know for a lot of families, even things like making a morning smoothie, that’s got a lot of those nutrients and micronutrients and brightly colored wild blueberries or whatever it is, and sneaking in maybe additional protein, maybe minerals that they need, whatever it may be. Most kids are open to smoothies if we can get them to taste good. And then you can begin to create those gut changes that make the process easier.
But I think what you said about also remember it takes time and not expect an overnight complete change. I’ve heard from many moms who get overwhelmed when attempting to do a complete 180 overnight. And so it’s always encouraging to hear that baby steps are also the most sustainable and probably long lasting approach and not as overwhelming either.
Dana: Definitely, definitely. But you’re so right about the gut microbiome and making changes. There’s a huge connection between the gut and the brain. And that’s definitely one of the things that I, one of the first things that we teach and preach to the families that we work with. And, you know, 54% of American children, as you said earlier, have been diagnosed with a chronic illness. And that was in 2018. But that figure was only 15% a couple of years before that. And when I think of that increase, I’m just shocked. You know, one in two of our kiddos have anxiety or asthma, you know, type one, type two diabetes, cystic fibrosis, heart problems, like it goes on and on. One in five have allergies, one in six have neurodevelopmental delays, and one in 32 have autism.
And when I look at why that rise has happened so rapidly, the answer is actually quite simple. It all begins in the gut. And 80% of our body’s entire immune system is within the gut wall, along with billions of nerve cells and an extensive amount of gut bacteria. So all of our children’s health is quite literally connected to everything that occurs in the gut. And I wish I took a statistic of, you know, I’ve spoken to thousands and thousands of families, as I’m sure you have as well. I wish I kept a statistic to see how many of their kids have been on strong antibiotics. I would say probably 80 to 90% of those kiddos have been on multiple rounds of antibiotics. And what happens is those antibiotics work by killing bacteria, whether it is the good bacteria or the bad bacteria. And so it actually is wreaking havoc on their gut, and many of those kids actually suffer lasting changes to their gut flora as a result of taking those antibiotics. So we’ve got these large percentage of children that have been on the multiple rounds of antibiotics that’s in turn compromising their gut. And when their gut is compromised, it’s not a huge surprise to see those disorders, like you mentioned, on the rise.
But if I tie gut health to the brain and ADHD, what the gut-brain connection means is that, in essence, our brains are quite literally connected to our guts. And if our guts aren’t functioning well, our brains won’t be able to either. 95% of our body’s serotonin and 50% of our body’s dopamine is produced in the gut. And these hormones and neurotransmitters are the ones that help our kids manage their emotions and balance their mood and help their cognitive function. And emotional dysregulation is a common symptom of ADHD. But, you know, as parents, we don’t realize that it’s, you know, that it’s connected to the gut. It actually starts in the gut where these, you know, serotonin and dopamine are made.
So when you start making these small little changes, like bringing in a smoothie, you’re actually starting to improve that gut health. And interestingly, one of the first symptoms that changes when that inflammation starts to reduce is that emotional dysregulation gets better. So, which is honestly one of the hardest things to deal with as a parent with a kid with ADHD is those tantrums, is those meltdowns. But the brain is also connected to the gut by the frontal lobe. And the frontal lobe is responsible for attention and focus and executive function and planning and organizing and problem solving, which are many areas that are affected by ADHD. So once parents can really start to focus on that gut, focus on reducing that inflammation slowly, step by step, those symptoms actually start to get better as well.
Katie: Well, and I will say I am the example of that kid who is on antibiotics. I had dozens of rounds before I was five years old when I got my tonsils removed. And I feel like in hindsight, it’s easy to see that perhaps that was what started a cascade that led to eventual health challenges, which thankfully I’ve now resolved. But I think addressing the gut early in life is because our kids such a tremendous advantage. And I say often on here, at the end of the day, we are each our own primary healthcare provider and healer. But when it comes to our kids, until they are able to fully take those reins, we’re also that guide for them. And so I love that this gives us a framework of where to start building those tangible ways that they can begin to connect to and nourish their body and understand that relationship at certainly a younger age than I learned it.
And you already touched on some of the really big offenders. But can you walk us through a list of in an optimal scenario, if you could wave that magic wand and change everything overnight, what would be the big offenders to really avoid or to slowly phase out of your house if your child is working through ADHD?
Dana: Well, I think that it is that multifaceted approach. So we’ve touched on diet, you know, those inflammatory foods, but it’s also the toxins. And I think I just kind of like to explain it with a little bit of a trash can for those that are watching. For those that are listening, you might not be able to see it, but, like, we, you know, I feel that we’re all born with this metaphorical trash can in our body and our goal through life is to keep the load on that trash can low. You know, most of us, we want to put that trash can out on the sidewalk walk on a Monday so the garbage truck can pick it up and empty it, but a lot of our kiddos have compromised detoxification pathways so they can’t effectively put that trash can out.
And so the load that goes on the trash can is that poor diet, is that toxic overload from, you know, chemicals in the house, the cleaning products, pesticides, so pesticides on food, our personal care products, medication, parasites, bacteria, they all go into our trash can and fill it up and fill it up. And if our kiddos don’t have good detoxification pathways, that load is going to overflow into their body. And that is when symptoms come out. So, you know, Katie, I love everything that you do and everything that you teach on your site, because that’s exactly what we teach about here. It’s like reducing that load on the trash can, all those little things.
And you can make those small, slow steps. You can, when you finish a cleaning product that might not be as good for you, let’s replace it with a better alternative. When you finish a personal care product, let’s replace it with a better alternative, doing it one step at a time. But, you know, once you know that your kid’s in that overflow, there’s lots going on. You may be wanting to bring in some functional lab testing to really look at what’s going on inside that body, what’s actually happening in that gut, and then targeting that specifically, making some really bio-individual changes with supplements, some specific diet strategies, lifestyle adjustments, optimizing the detoxication so that kid can start to feel better, so they can start to thrive at home, at school, and just in life in general.
Katie: Yeah, and I think the other great thing when we’re talking about making these interventions at a younger age, and we’re talking about children specifically, is kids are incredibly adaptable. I know when I started making those shifts in my home years and years ago, I did start to see changes rapidly, but my kids, it was so quick. It surprised me how rapidly their bodies adapt. And we know that at younger ages, their guts are even more adaptable, their brains are even more adaptable. And I think the message of hope here especially is we’re all wired to be able to heal. Our body wants to be in an optimal state of health. It’s just kids can get there even more quickly when we learn how to support them. And it doesn’t require being perfect all the time. It actually just requires understanding these factors and sort of supporting in these ways that you explain.
I also think that there are probably, I’m sure you can give us a list of beneficial foods and nutrient-dense foods that we can work on getting into their diet. I always love to take a positive focused approach whenever possible. I think it’s important to have that list of, if possible, avoid these big offenders. But I feel like the more encouraging perspective is also, these are the really helpful things that are supportive. And if we can learn how to incorporate them and love them, they can really benefit our body and sort of nourish it in the way that you’re talking about. So I would love to talk about that. Like, what are some of the foods that you really encourage families to begin to integrate and to focus on, especially with kids? Because even outside of ADHD, they’re in such an amazing window we know for bone density, for skeletal muscle formation, for brain development that lasts their whole life. So these changes benefit across the board. Where do you encourage parents to start focusing?
Dana: Yeah, look, one of the biggest research nutrients for kids with ADHD is omega-3 fatty acids. And, you know, that comes in fatty fish, like salmon, and it comes in seeds and nuts and things like that. A lot of families, though, have a picky eater. So sometimes, you know, while you’re adapting the taste buds, sometimes while you’re reducing the inflammation, bringing in an omega-3 fatty acid supplement might be beneficial. But really focusing, as I mentioned earlier, those whole fresh fruits and veggies. Berries are amazing because they can really help with antioxidant properties. So they can help with that detoxification. They can help with repairing those cells.
And as you said, kids adapt so quickly. My son, when we started to make some of these changes, literally within three or four weeks, he was a different kid. So really focusing on that. Grass-fed animal protein, I’m sure you talk about the differences between like the conventional meat and the grass-fed, grass-finished beef is really, really important. That wild-caught fish, you know, that’s going to give you that omega-3 fatty acids.
We want lots of spring water. Bringing in different types of spring water are actually going to give you some of the minerals that you need. And really also water helps us detoxify. So our kids need water. So instead of juice instead of, you know, soda, just getting them to drink water. And a lot of parents out there say to me, well, my kid doesn’t like water. A really good way to get them to drink more water is to actually infuse it with fruit. So what’s one of their favorite fruit? Is it apple? Is it mint? Is it watermelon? You can, you know, put that in the water overnight and so they can start to drink that. You can make it a game. Who can drink the most amount of water today and you get a prize or whatever it may be.
Lots of healthy nuts and seeds. Making a trail mix is really, really great. So you can bring in those nuts, those seeds. Even put in some dairy-free chocolate chips, you know. Calcium is a big one. But we’re all told that dairy is the only way to get calcium. It’s so not right. There are so many other great ways to get calcium for our kids and their bone structure. And a really good tip to do is actually you can get the shell of eggs, you can bake them in the oven, and you can ground them into a powder. And you can sprinkle that in smoothies because they’re so high in calcium. And that is a whole fresh food way of bringing in more calcium if your child’s not drinking milk.
Katie: And I realize this is not a starter suggestion for that, but over time, I have slowly gotten my kids to be open to trying and learn to appreciate sardines. And there’s a lot of bones and sardines that also are bioavailable source of calcium. And that’s an inexpensive protein. So I recognize most kids are not going to start there. But that’s just a budget-friendly tip. I had to teach myself to learn to love them as well.
What about other factors that are within our ability to affect change as parents that can be really supportive? So what comes to mind is anything in the way we think about our light exposure and time outdoors or addressing stress levels. If we know statistically stress levels are rising even in our youngest ages of children, do you have any tips for parents in either of those categories?
Dana: Yeah, look, definitely. I mean, what I teach is sort of like a three-pronged approach. It’s reduce, which is reducing that inflammation. It’s restore. It’s restoring the body with all of those good nutrients and supplements. And then it’s renewing. Renewing is all about renewing the family unit, the body, and the brain so it can thrive. And a big part of that is, you know, renewing that family unit. So parenting also from a place of compassion and connection. The biggest thing that I learned through this journey is that we actually hold the keys to our child’s nervous system until they’re sort of the age of 18. And so they regulate themselves through us. And so if we can understand that, even our breathing can help them regulate themselves. Our breathing can reduce the stress in the house. So really learning that ADHD-specific parenting approach is super important.
Sleep, sleep is massive. And I do find a lot of kids with ADHD actually have an underlying sleep disorder. So if your child sleeps with their mouth open, you want to get that checked out because the brain’s not getting the oxygen it needs. They could have something called sleep apnea, and that can actually exacerbate, or even create ADHD-like symptoms. You said getting out into the sunlight, 100%, you know, we get all of our vitamin D from the sun and most of our kids are inside, they’re on media devices. So that EMF exposure is affecting their body and their brain. That creates, that adds some toxins to the toxic load there. Getting your kids out in the morning sun is the best to reset their circadian rhythms, and really just helping them get off media. Look, it’s part of our life, you know, we’re not going to be able to avoid it 100%, 100%, especially if we’ve got kids that actually go to school rather than homeschool. And so we’ve got to accept that, but we can control and minimize the amount of exposure that they’re getting to that. There’s so many studies out there that it can affect the brain and how the brain is developing in there. It’s such a crucial age.
So all of these other things, they’re part of that holistic plan. It’s not just about diet. It’s not just about functional lab testing. It’s not just about supplements. It’s like, you’ve got this table, sorry, I like to use a lot of analogies, you’ve got this table and that table is not going to be very strong if you’ve got one leg broken. So, you know, we’ve got diet, we’ve got rest. So that’s that sleep. We’ve got exercise, the best thing for kids, the number one best thing you can do for kids, is get more exercise. Not only it’s going to help all of those neurons in the brain fire off and repair, it’s going to help detoxification. It’s going to calm their energy levels. There’s so many benefits that come from exercise. We’ve got stress reduction. So really bringing that stress down in the house, using our own nervous system to regulate their nervous system.
But as mommas, I totally get it. Like I would fly off the handle, there’ll be so many times when we, you know, we’re in such a stressful state in our house. We need to take care of ourselves first. And we need to, self-care is not selfish. Self-care is actually going to help our whole family as a whole, you know, and then we’ve got supplements. So really making sure that the leg on that, every leg on that table is strong. So that table can be strong.
Katie: Yeah, so many good tips there. I think especially the emotional regulation and nervous system component that you mentioned, especially for moms, it is incredible to the degree that we can sort of set the emotional tone for our entire household, which is a big responsibility. But I was fascinated when I read that, especially for the first seven years, our kids’ nervous systems are actually dependent on ours. Like they are co-regulating almost entirely when they’re babies, and then that only gradually shifts away. And then that’s still their most valuable feedback, even until they get to adulthood. And so I think what you just said about self-care isn’t selfish. It’s actually one of the biggest gifts we can give them is our own regulation and our own calm. So I love that you brought that up.
And same with the light. I say that all the time on here, that morning sunlight, we underestimate because it is so simple. It can be so profound. And even for ourselves, our energy levels, our sleep. And in the same way, like one tip that helped a lot in my house was I bought lamps that were at like eye level or below with amber bulbs, no blue light, like kind of low light bulbs. And at sunset, we just switched the lighting from overhead bright light to those. And it helps everyone start to get more sleepy at a normal time. It helps us all to calm down. Just avoiding those screens at night is a simple way to start helping that sleep pattern. And then of course, like you said, if there’s mouth breathing, if there’s an actual sleep disturbance going on, it’s worth getting those checked by someone who can really help dial that in for your child specifically.
But I think all of these factors, and just again, to reiterate, like how rapidly kids can respond to these, if you’re in the thick of any of those struggles, I would say don’t underestimate how much you can start to see a positive change very, very quickly, even with little baby steps. So just that note of hope for moms. And I know we’re going to get to do another round to really go deep on the gut brain connection here and how that comes into play with ADHD. But can you tell people where they can find you and keep learning from you and maybe any additional resources you have on the topics we’ve talked about today?
Dana: Yeah, definitely. You can find me at my website, which is adhdthriveinstitute.com. I’m on all social media at ADHD Thrive Institute. I have my best-selling book, which is available on Amazon, which is called Thriving with ADHD: A Guide to Naturally Reducing ADHD Symptoms in Your Child. Yeah, so that’s, I’m all around the web.
Katie: Awesome. Well, all of those links will be in the show notes for anyone listening on the go. But I hope that this episode has been so helpful for many people listening. I know I’ve learned a lot from you and hopefully this gives some great starting points for a lot of the other moms that are listening as well. And also, like I said, stay tuned for our next episode together, where we get to go even deeper on some of the gut brain information. But for this one, thank you so much for your time. This was so fun and I’m so grateful.
Dana: Thank you so much, Katie.
Katie: And thank you for listening. I hope you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.
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