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Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
This episode is brought to you by Apollo Neuro. And if you’ve listened for a while, you know that managing stress is important for health and that getting a good night’s sleep is pivotal for our wellbeing. And those are two things we talk a lot about on this podcast and they’re top of my priority list for this year. Now, if you followed me at all last year, you know last year was also a pretty emotionally taxing year for me. And at times I saw my sleep and my HRV especially take a hit. And one thing that helped a lot for me was the Apollo device.
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Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com. And I’m here today with my dear friend, Jodi Cohen, who is, like I said, one of my close friends. She’s also a best-selling author, a journalist like I was as well, and the founder of a company called Vibrant Blue Oils, which is one of my top resources. And she uses them very specifically. This is not just typical in a diffuser essential oils. And we talk about that today in this episode. She’s had a lot of personal experience with this, as well as the work that she does through this company. And we go deep on the topic of why topically applied remedies can be so effective. And we also touch on a lot of aspects of lymphatic health, but we talk about how the topical remedies can bypass the digestive system and sometimes the liver, which can be helpful if you have issues in either of those and ways that you can use them in very specific places to support certain things in the body, including supporting your nervous system in feeling safe and downshifting into parasympathetic. I always learn a lot when I talk to Jodi. So let’s jump in. Jodi, welcome. Thanks so much for being here. I’m so excited we get to chat today.
Jodi: I know this is going to be so fun.
Katie: Well, I know there’s so many directions we could go because you are an absolute wealth of knowledge. But I think to start, I would love to delve into why topical remedies can not only be effective, but sometimes be more effective. Because I’ve personally used your remedies and experienced this. And I’ll say anecdotally, I know someone actually who used them for something that was not responding to any kind of conventional treatment with her gallbladder. And the oils helped her drastically. And she was able to make a full recovery. So I’ve seen firsthand myself just how effective these can be. But I would love to really delve into the research and the science and your clinical experience with what makes these so different. So to start off broad, maybe, can we talk about topical remedies, kind of what they are definition, and then how they’re able to enter the body?
Jodi: Yeah. So basically, a topical remedy or a transdermal remedy is anything that you put on the skin because the skin is the largest organ. And sometimes, you know, digestion is compromised. We have leaky gut. What we’re digesting isn’t getting absorbed and assimilated into the body. And so topical. And we think of that like if you ever, you know, sprain a wrist or sprain an ankle, you might put a cortisone cream on. You might do hormonal patches or nicotine patches. So we know that the skin is a really good way to get things into the system. What we don’t really understand is why it sometimes works and why it doesn’t work and what remedies actually work the best through the skin.
Katie: That makes sense. And I know there are medications that enter the body through the skin. Certainly, this was a research area for me with developing personal care products is realizing such a large percentage of what we put on our skin enters our bloodstream. So from a developing perspective, I was looking at like, okay, so how do we first of all, which to me should be the baseline, avoid putting harmful things on our body. But even more so then how can we use this to our advantage to get beneficial things into the body? And you touched on like if your metabolism is compromised or your digestion is compromised, we can take supplements and it’s not what we take, it’s what we absorb. And it’s tough to even know for sure when we’re taking things or eating things, what percentage of that is actually being assimilated. But it’s a whole different process when it goes on our skin, right? Because it’s not going through digestion. So it’s almost like a cheat code a little bit. It’s bypassing some of the normal ways that the body can keep things from entering.
Jodi: Yes, it bypasses digestion and also bypasses the liver so that if you have any kind of stagnant liver, it actually gets into the system more quickly. And interestingly, you know, a lot of times with dosing, because the liver is compromised, people are taking more medication than they need. But if you’re actually using a channel that’s more effective to get things in, you can use less.
Katie: So to build from there, what are some of the ways that we can use topical remedies? I know that like we’ve touched on medication. I know that’s not really either of our focus, but when it comes to natural remedies, it seems like there are so many ways that we can do this. People have probably heard before on this podcast, people use castor oil packs and use castor oil topically to help support the body in various ways. Of course, like skincare ingredients, we acknowledge you can put them on our face, and they can hopefully have a beneficial effect, but it’s so much broader than that. So what are some of the ways that you have researched and experienced using topical remedies in a more focused way that people might not have thought to or experienced themselves?
Jodi: I love that you brought up castor oil. It’s so interesting because the majority of things that we try to apply to our skin don’t actually get into our skin. You know, the layer is pretty thick, and it’s designed to prevent things to go in. So it needs to be fat, fat-friendly, lipophilic, you know, fat-loving. So fat likes fat. And then it also needs to have kind of small molecules.
So there’s been a lot of research around essential oils to actually get through the skin, but also to carry other remedies into the skin. Like they’ve done research on how do you get ibuprofen, you know, and painkilling things through the skin. And what it really validated for me is that certain oils like clove, which we actually have in our parasympathetic blend, it’s clove and lime and blends are actually ideal because when you have certain ingredients, certain plants that have certain constituents that are really powerful for kind of carrying things into the body. And then also when you combine them with each other, it means it’s more powerful. So they use oils not only to kind of stimulate the skin, but to carry other remedies, almost Trojan horse it, disguise, you know, the ibuprofen so that it gets into the system. And so that’s, that’s what I’m really excited about because especially for people like you mentioned that have any kind of digestive concern or detoxification concern, you know, they’re all they’re doing is avoiding foods and they’re being really careful about what they can actually use. This gives them another alternative because it gives them another way to kind of put the body into balance.
Katie: And I’ve used your parasympathetic blend. I usually travel with it actually because I find like you get that first night sleep interruption when anytime you’re in a new environment. And I find that that really actually helps my nervous system calm back down and be able to sleep deeply. And I would assume most people listening, if not everyone, are familiar with the concept of essential oils. But I would guess also with these, these are highly concentrated, right? The essential oil form is much more concentrated than if you, for instance, took a bath in the same herb or drink a tea of the same herb. So I would guess that you can get a more profound effect from essential oils, even topically than you might, for instance, from taking a supplement that was like peppermint or clove or whatever. And you might not want some of the other compounds if you were going to take a large amount of it internally. But is that true with essential oils? It’s so much more concentrated that we’re able to get a much more noticeable effect even topically.
Jodi: Yeah, it is. I mean, you can like one drop of peppermint oil is kind of the equivalence of 50 cups of peppermint tea. So it’s way more concentrated. That’s what’s really nice is less is more. You need to use a lot less, which means you need to detoxify a lot less. And it kind of helps you balance out more quickly.
And, you know, the other thing that’s really interesting is a lot of the organs are fairly close to the surface. So if you’re thinking about like ingesting a remedy, right, it has to travel through the whole digestive system. Then goes through the liver, then gets into the bloodstream and then is circulated system-wide. So it could take a while between when you ingest the supplement or the medicine to when you feel the effect. Whereas essential oils go through the skin so quickly. And the parasympathetic blend that you were talking about, which is clove and lime, we use it almost as like an acupuncture needle. Like you put it right behind the earlobe here, which is where your vagus nerve, which kind of is the gear shift between like stress and relax is closest to the surface. So the nice thing about oil, certain organs like your fascia, your lymph, even some of your organs like your adrenals on the back of your body, your liver on the front of your body, which is why castor oil works, they’re close to the surface. So the most accessible route to get to them is through the skin, not necessarily through the digestive tract.
Katie: That makes sense. And I’m glad you brought up that concept that less is more, especially when it comes to essential oils because I think they can be so effective that I often think of them almost in like a pharmaceutical level of effectiveness category where you would not want to just, you know, especially ingest huge amounts of these or just like lather yourself with them because they don’t, you don’t need that. And like you said, often a very small amount can have a really profound effect. And I’ve seen that, like I said, with the parasympathetic also now with the lymphatic one, which I love that you’re addressing that because I think I’ve seen it, what seems to be an increase in sort of like lymphatic slowdown and sluggishness in today’s modern world, which makes complete sense with when we think about how much we’re exposed to, but let’s go deeper on some of the ways we can use these on different points on the body. Cause I know you almost do take like a Chinese medicine approach to this with also making use of meridians and acupuncture points and that there’s so many cool directions you can go to achieve whatever desired effect you’re aiming for.
Jodi: No, that’s exactly what I think. I love that you brought up less is more. It’s almost like exercise. You can run three miles and that’s great. That doesn’t mean you need to run 20 miles every day. Sometimes doing too much actually does some damage. And my goal, where you apply is almost as important as what you apply. When you use the meridian system of the body, we kind of talked about the whole systemic effect of ingesting an oil and how it kind of gets to where it’s going. People look at topical and they think, oh, it needs to go through the skin, get into the blood, then be carried to the heart, then be pumped systemically. And that’s not wrong. But when you use it on reflex points, acupuncture points, it’s almost a shortcut. It gets right to the organs.
And I’m a huge fan of reflexology and acupuncture, but it can be time consuming and expensive to go to the appointment. And sometimes you’re really relaxed and then you’re walking out the door and you get that phone call and suddenly your blood pressure spikes and you’re not necessarily in that relaxed state. And so, I think that oil can be used on topical points to kind of continue the therapy. And we talked about the parasympathetic point. The vagus nerve is literally the gear shift between your fight or flight parasympathetic, or sympathetic, nervous system and your rest and digest parasympathetic. It’s the longest nerve in the body that connects the brain to the rest of the body. And just to give you a quick anatomy overview, it starts at the base of the neck, splits and is most accessible right here behind the earlobe. That’s where it’s literally the thickest and the closest to the skin. So while there are a lot of amazing ways to activate your vagus nerve, including breathing, coffee enemas, any kind of yoga, this is just a really easy accessible to the surface hack. And it’s probably my favorite one.
In terms of the lymphatics, you know, most people like, honestly, so much of our health is ensuring that the good things get in and the bad things get out. And the bad things are really kind of the metabolic waste, any kind of toxic buildup, all of your sewage system, which is your lymphatics run through your clavicles. Like if you feel kind of on your clavicle area and that feels a little tender, that just means that there might be congestion in that point. This is the main exit point of the body. And so many of us don’t even know that. So we’re eating all the right foods, you know, doing all the right exercise, but the garbage isn’t necessarily leaving our system. So if it stays too long, it triggers the immune system, then it triggers inflammation. And we wonder why we’re chronically inflamed when the easiest thing to do is just make sure that the garbage is leaving on a regular basis.
Katie: Yeah. Well, and to build on the concept with less is more, I love that you used exercise as an example, because I’ve seen this, especially in women and in myself for a long time is like, if you are not able to enter a parasympathetic state, or if your nervous system is chronically kind of amped up, certain exercise, especially too much exercise can actually put you more in a state of stress and make all the things you’re likely trying to accomplish by exercise more difficult, like putting on muscle or losing excess fat or whatever it may be can get more difficult if you have those stress hormones amped up all the time. Whereas I spent a year doing only very mild, gentle exercise, like walking and gentle swimming and focusing on sort of retraining my body’s sympathetic and parasympathetic tone. And then, then was able to add on the heavy weights. And so I think for women, especially, this is an important point because we can, whether it’s an exercise, whether it’s in supplements or anything, we can do too much. And now something that’s good is now stressful for the body.
And I would love to talk more about lymphatic points and that idea of getting the garbage out, because I fully agree with you. I think this is not talked about enough. And I’ve started incorporating things like lymphatic massage on myself, things like the castor oil packs for that same thing. But I know there’s so much we can do here. And that being aware of this actually can really give your body a leg up in processing because the body’s innately so smart at getting that stuff out, if we help it. We don’t have to do anything extreme. We just have to support what the body already naturally knows how to do. So how do we support the body in getting that garbage out? Are there particular oils that are helpful for that in particular? Like would we apply them on the clavicle? Or how does that work?
Jodi: There are particular oils and there’s a particular order. And I’m a big fan, I mean, you’re a mom of six. I’m a mom of two. I feel like the easier you can make something, the more likely people are to adhere to it. So I really try to make it as easy as possible. These oils are really designed to kind of, you know, your lymph is the waste sewage system, but it can get congested. Like think of a traffic jam. Like I live in Seattle. Often there’s a traffic jam in Tacoma, which is one city down. And that means that traffic can be backed up like 20 minutes, right? And if you can open up that congestion, then everything flows more easily, more quickly. Just like that, your lymphatics can get congested. And there are some key points where they’re kind of, there are more lymph nodes. Like your neck is a big one. And the more you can open up those points of congestion or think of, you know, we both have long hair, detangle that knot in your hair, the more you can kind of run the comb through.
So the order is, the lymph oil helps, if you want to just do it, even at home, when you’re driving in your car. When you’re helping your kid with homework, when you’re cooking, whatever it is that you’re doing, you know, it’s just the clavicle is the most important one. And we drain 75% on the left side. So sometimes you start with the left and you’re just going to, it can be as there are a lot of ways you can do it. There’s no wrong way. You can kind of gently caress it. You can start underneath the clavicle and move toward the shoulder. Do that for five strokes. You can go over, above. You can do it at the same time or one at a time. You can gently kind of tap. All of these things are good. If you don’t have time and you know, you’re racing to things, you can just put a little bit of oil there. It’s just a way of calling attention there. So this is, you know, you don’t want to yell fire in the crowded movie theater without opening the exit doors. This is the exit door. If you do nothing else, this point on the clavicle and just kind of opening the lymphatic drainage is huge and will do a lot for you.
If you’re able to do the next step, kind of that point, if you feel with me behind your earlobe, you’re going to feel a bone. That is your mastoid bone. There’s another big lymph node there. So just kind of opening this lymph area, kind of doing brush strokes downward toward the neck. This is also good, you know, as you get older, Nora Ephron wrote that book, I Hate My Neck. You know, you start to get that turkey gobble. A lot of that turkey gobble is just lymph congestion. It’s kind of stuck there. So it’s good for you physically, and it’s also good for you cosmetically, just that downward motion. So step one is the clavicle. Step two is behind the earlobe and the downward motion. You can also do along your jawline. You can do it with a Gua Sha. You’re just kind of moving any lymph and congestion downward.
And step three is the armpits. And I thought this was really interesting. You know, there’s a lot of research that congestion in the lymph in the armpits, what happens then it backs up into the breast tissue. And then there’s toxins in the breast tissue. What can that contribute to, things like breast cancer? So the more, you know, our friend Kelly Kennedy talks about if you have arm puffs, meaning like puffiness here, as opposed to armpits concave, that just is a sign of lymph congestion. So just kind of, you know, if you go ahead and gently caress, you can put oil on under your arm. If it feels tender to you, this might be just a sign that you should do it more. You know, maybe do this one by yourself in your car, but just kind of gently caressing under the stomach, or I’m sorry, the armpits.
And then the fourth point is the stomach. As you know, the majority of the lymph nodes live in the stomach. And one thing I’ve been playing with, you know, I’m 55. And so you start to get that like hormonal weight in your stomach. I’ve been noticing the more I work the lymph in the stomach, the more I don’t have like that belly fat bloat, which was new information for me. I thought that was really interesting. So I’m a big fan of working the lymph in the gut. This is also really good for gut health, for immune health. So that’s step four.
Step five is the inguinal area, the bikini line. I’m just kind of caressing in that area. And then step six is just behind the kneecaps. And basically, you know, lymph is a hydraulic system. It flows from kind of high pressure to low pressure. So the more you can open up the whole drainage pathway downstream, the more you ensure that the lymph basically carries that garbage out of the body.
Katie: That makes sense. And I think that’s an important point that you brought up that 75% of it is actually released on the left side of the body. I know I’m remembering statistically also more cancers and especially breast cancer occurs on the left side of the body. So I find that at least an interesting correlation, not that there’s of course causation there, but interesting to make note of. And I love the pump analogy as well. I think these are very simple things and often it goes back to the simple things that are actually the most profound and foundational and pivotal. And they often get overlooked because of their simplicity. But I think these little tips can make, to your point, a huge difference. Even things like years ago, I got the advice to at night for about 15 minutes, lay with your legs straight up against a wall to help that lymphatic stuff move. And I found that by sort of like pumping or massaging gently the backs of the kneecaps while you’re doing that, you actually really kind of feel that happening. And it tends to correlate with deeper sleep. So for anybody struggling with sleep, that’s an easy tip that costs nothing is just lay with your legs up on the wall and let your lymphatic system do its job.
But I think also like the point about the clavicle is key because that’s an easy thing we can do. And I think, like you said, it can get much more involved, and you can sort of do your whole body with that amount of pressure that’s like moving honey through a sponge and help it sort of move toward those points. But I think it’s simple as just like that pumping you mentioned, it takes literally minutes or seconds and you can do that on your own at home that doesn’t require a practitioner or anything involved. And that little thing can help make a huge difference. Even on the cosmetics side, that I’ve just started experimenting with the neck stuff as well. As I get older, I’m like aware of that now. And it does seem like there is an effect there. And you seem to be more clear headed. If you just do that like neck and clavicle a couple times a day, which makes sense. If you’ve got some brain fog related to that congestion, you’re just helping your body kind of get a leg up on that.
Jodi: Yeah. And the other thing I will say is that, you know, the fascia, which is the connective tissue in our body, wraps around the lymph. And so sometimes if you’re doing everything right, you’re not seeing progress, what can happen? I mean, think about what we do all day. You know, we look at our device, we have like tech neck, or we brace for impact. I used to, when my kids were little at the swimming pool, I’d like waddle around behind them, like, don’t drown, don’t fall in. You know, we’re all kind of stuck in that, like, prepare for danger, but then the danger passes, and we don’t open up our fascia. And so that’s, you know, you can find a fascia specialist, they’re great, and they’re hard to find. But I found this oil is amazing. And I use it liberally, I use it all over the neck, all over the shoulders. In fact, I love it for the back of the heart for anyone who struggles with heart opening. Money back guarantee if you try this and it doesn’t make a difference or hip opening, all of a sudden pigeon pose is a lot easier. It’s really amazing because the fascia is literally near the surface. So this is the easiest way to kind of relax it, give it more space, warm it up so that blood can flow more.
Katie: Yeah, I think fascia is another area we just don’t talk about enough and it’s throughout the whole body and so important. I actually just heard someone else talk about this recently of how you just mentioned, like when we’re like hunched over our phone, looking down from our nervous system’s perspective, that is a, it’s not an optimal position by any means, but it kind of signals to our nervous system that we’re not really being aware of what’s around us. Not only, and it’s not great for our fascia either to be crumpled up like that all day. And so she actually recommended a couple of times a day, like stand up, put your shoulders back, arms out in like a very, like almost like apex predator pose, but that shows confidence and look around with your neck. Because she said, if you’re not doing that, even if you feel calm, your nervous systems in the background going, hey, have you even checked for danger lately? Like, do you even know what’s behind you? And so that like signals sort of a safety signal to our nervous system, just like these oils can signal safety to our nervous system, which is a big key in that sympathetic parasympathetic balance. Are there other ways to support the fascia as well? Like I know, often mobility I find helps a lot with fascia and how I feel, but are there other things we can do in conjunction with the oils to help our fascia be better?
Jodi: Yeah, there are a couple, you know, there’s the MELT Method. She has this kind of like foam pads that are great. There’s the Block method. There are a lot of things that we can do manually to open fascia. Even I think yoga is really good for fascia. I think all of the heart opening, anything that we can do, it’s a very gentle stretch. I’m actually, this is kind of my current obsession because the fascia is also very interwoven with the parasympathetic nervous system. You know, like I keep thinking, what am I missing? What am I missing? Fascia is a really big deal. And it really kind of, it constricts the flow of information and energy. Scars are basically congestion in the fascia and interference field. And so that’s why sometimes, you know, things get out of balance because we compensate, right? You know, we kind of hurt our shoulders. So we’re like, we’re working around it. And then we make this accommodation that basically keeps setting us in the wrong direction and causing more and more pain. So it’s a great way to unravel it.
Katie: And before we run out of time in our first conversation, I would love to just sort of rapid-fire talk through some of the other ways that these oils can be used because I know you have blends for lots of things, including ones that might be really relevant to our listeners with sleep and circadian rhythm. I talk a lot about those, and hopefully we’ve all heard by now how important sleep is. But I know you’ve done work on specific things to help with that for people who are struggling. And I know many women, as they enter perimenopause and menopause, run into some sleep struggles. So what are some of the other blends and where do they go if people want to start applying them?
Jodi: So circadian rhythm, it’s your pineal gland that releases melatonin. If you’re struggling to fall asleep, that is because your melatonin isn’t releasing, which can be from a number of reasons. It can be high cortisol levels, which throw it off. It can be a pineal gland congestion from, you know, things like aluminum and fluoride and other factors, glyphosate. So you put the oil top of the head, you’re basically putting it around the head to enter into the pineal gland, above the ear on the skin, and then back of the head. I don’t tell people to put oil on their face when they’re going to sleep because especially if they toss and turn, I don’t want it in their eyes. So that’s a great one for falling asleep.
Katie: That’s awesome. And I know there’s so many more than we can cover in one conversation, but you guys have them for like circadian rhythm for, I think there’s even a heart opening one. There’s one specific to lots of points in the body. Do those also go sort of on acupuncture and acupressure points or are they more specific to the organ, like topical where the organ would be?
Jodi: Both. I tell people, so some people like to figure it out on themselves and just use their intuition. For people that are very specific, I give you exact application points, both over organs and on reflex points. And then you can always just say, well, gosh, I really like it on my wrist. Whatever feels right to you, that’s what you should do. But yeah, my other favorite point, spleen six is kind of a great immune point. It’s four fingers up from the ankle bone on the inside. That’s a great one that you can use. We have a spleen oil. You can use any oil there, but especially as we get into cold and flu season, that’s a really great one for immunity. Whenever my kids get a sniffle, I always use our immune support on that point to just kind of stimulate the immune system and it goes away really quickly.
Katie: That’s awesome. And I’ll make sure, of course, that those are all linked. I know there’s a ton of different options. I’ll make sure those are linked in the show notes for everybody listening on the go. Any parting tips related to the specifics of what we talked about today? I mean, I think we’ve made a strong case for why topical can be so incredibly effective. And like I said, I’ve seen the benefits of using topical remedies in my own life, but any parting tips related to that? And I know we also get to have another follow-up conversation that’ll go deep on some other topics.
Jodi: I just really love the idea of empowering people, of telling them all you need to do is, you know, you can even run infinity circles like in this area behind your earlobe. And I think, you know, there’s a lot of things that are outside of our control that we might feel like we have to respond to, and it might throw us kind of off of our game. You know, we feel like we’re getting on the roller coaster. And this point in particular behind the earlobe, that really allows us to kind of, you know, no matter what’s going on outside of us, it allows us to activate our own resilience so we can show up as our best self. So the world might be crazy. Our kid might be melting down. You know, whatever is going on, we don’t have to get on the roller coaster with them. We’re able to kind of recognize like, oh, maybe I wouldn’t have picked that. But okay, I guess we’re doing this and we’ll figure out the best way to get through it.
Katie: Such a great point. And then last question, since you mentioned kids, I know we might get questions of can kids use these oils or at what age is it okay for kids to use these remedies as well?
Jodi: Anyone over two. I think two is a little young, but if you’re 18 months or older, then yes.
Katie: Awesome. Well, Jodi, you are always such a joy. This has been such a fun conversation. And like I said, I’ve personally gotten to benefit from the work that you do and all the people that you help in the world. So thank you so much for being here and thank you for all the good that you bring to the world.
Jodi: Thank you.
Katie: And thanks to you for listening. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of The Wellness Mama Podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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